This week we have a frank conversation about divorce. We chat with our special guest, Linda Grant, about her divorce, warning signs, thoughts, and a few things she wished she would have different and much more.
This episode is filled with some great nuggets and gives us a glimpse into what divorce might look like.
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Welcome to Episode 17 of amplified marriage. Today we have a special guest, my mom, we are talking about what happens if your marriage falls apart.
Welcome to another episode of amplified marriage. My name is Natalie. And I'm Brian,
wherever you are, whatever you're doing, grab a snack, grab a cup of coffee or tea, sit on the couch. cozy up. Today, we have a special guest.
And her name is Linda. She's so happy to say her name into the microphone. Very first time. Linda is my mother. We are excited to have her with us today. And hopefully by the end of this, you'll have a nugget, a little bit of information, a little bit of something that maybe even as we talked about, what we want to talk about tonight is actual divorce and the things leading up to it and some some of the ideas surrounding divorce, and things like that. So you've heard on our podcast a lot. We've talked about foundations, techniques, or communication, or sex or dates, or how you should pray with each other and talk to each other words you should never use. And we just kind of want to go if all of that breaks down. And we get to the place where divorce is an option. And you start to consider divorce. And so one of the first things, Mom, how long were you married
years? You're married for 17 years? How long has it been since you were divorced? 22 years. So do you feel in the 22 years that you've been able to heal your heart heal? part of you that was kind of just messed up during the divorce?
Yeah. You feel like that God's been able to put you back together again? Definitely. Yeah. And what were some of the, like, even leading up to the last year? Did you what were the warning signs that you saw, even for or Were there any warning signs?
I wouldn't say there was warning signs that divorce was impending. But our communication was, it was less and less and we never had good communication to begin with. So what
does that what does it mean? Not good communication?
We did not share our hearts with each other. Okay. We did not share our like really deep? Yeah, inner feelings. I learned early on that anything I shared was fair game, in for other people for in conversation anywhere
to share just with friends or people.
Oh, that wouldn't sit well with me either.
No. And so how soon was it into the relationship where you realize that was a boundary that was consistently being crossed, and you shut down?
I was quite far. And before it was like blatant in my face, when there was an incident that happened. And it was like I said, don't tell any walked out and told Oh, well, there was a there was a moment that. And this was already in our last five years, right where it really started widening the gap. Up until then it was very subtle. It was it was little things not and I couldn't even put my finger on it. It was just little things I didn't share. I just kept myself to myself. But not totally. I mean, I was trying to make the marriage work trying to be relational.
But we didn't get close. We didn't get intimate in our conversation, right? No,
in those times where you felt like the boundary was crossed. Were you able to communicate after company left to let's say, and say about that earlier thing that I said please don't disclose and then you went in there disclose, were you able to communicate your displeasure in that or you just kind of let it be?
I think I just let it go. Right. I think I just shut the door and be analytical.
So what did that do to your just to your willingness or your your desire to communicate, like how did that how do you consistently like literally lift up the rug and sweep something under there without the what's under the rug turning into a mountain and you're just angry and bitter? Because you're, you know, you're my mom, you're not super angry or bitter? No. Even back then you weren't super angry or bitter that I remember.
No, and I wasn't I think I, I, I you know, just want to back up a little bit and say I was very naive when I went into marriage. Yeah. I had the understanding that I was a Christian. He was a Christian. It's kind of work. Yeah. That was almost the only prerequisite I had. We had no marriage counseling. Oh, and I would say right now, don't anybody go into marriage without marriage counseling? Yeah.
Like doing the
pre marriage intensive pre marriage counseling. Yeah. Because we have nothing. And we we discussed nothing at a time. None of the pitfalls. I mean, we talked about, yeah, we want to have kids. And yeah, you're gonna stay home with a moment of work. You know, like, yeah, general things.
So did he did did that happen? Like, that was the conversation you had us? You're gonna stay at home where you're like, yeah, I want to stay home.
Yeah, it was. Yeah. It was a conversation that we both agreed on. I was happy to stay home and raise kids. Yeah. And he was, you know, you wanted to go to work. He didn't want me working. And I don't even know that he ever said, I don't want you working. It was kind of one of those things. You know, like, we were gonna be very traditional. Yeah, it's Oh, that being said, it was just kind of how we were falling into it. Yeah. Right. And we both were on the same page. As far as that goes.
Yeah. So you said strongly. Everyone who's considering getting married. And we would Natalie and I would say, if you are married, go and get counseling, if you need it. Even even we know many couples that have done preventative marriage counseling, yes, just to work on stuff. So if you need that, go and get counseling, there's nothing wrong with getting counseling. So I kind of want to rewind that back to before you were dating. If you didn't do the premarital counseling, and you had an in depth gone into those things, and he had worked on on that side of things, what was like, kind of tying you together and Hynek kind of holding you together and early on in the marriage if you weren't having like really in depth conversations about how life was gonna go?
Well, we probably we're having conversations that were very fairy tale ish. Ah, you know, you're gonna get married because we love each other. We're gonna have kids. Yeah, you know, love conquers all. Yeah. And we're Christians. Yeah, it's gonna work.
Right. Exactly. Right. And that's, that's Yeah. And
a lot of people go into it like that. Can I just ask if you so as you were saying, like, there, you didn't do the pre marriage counseling or whatever. So as you were not now you're married? What was your support system, like, as far as a church or friends even that were able that you trusted that were able to speak into your life or to notice, hey, Linda, I noticed that, you know, you really shut down. Did you have any of that?
We were going to Bible school at the time that we met and married. And so a lot of our peers in Bible school Also, we're married, right? We're getting married all at the same time. And I think all of us were kind of in that same boat. Like we're Christians. That's great. Yeah, God is good. And, you know, just kind of that way, and we went to church in the same church. But there wasn't a closeness with anybody. We didn't have a life group. There. Were those were not then. And, yeah, we were only there a year, and we moved white right to the other side of the province, right. There was no
one where was your Bible school?
and you moved from Vancouver to? To kitimat? Oh, kitimat. That's where I was born. Right? The iron smell
at any point in the 17 years? Would you say that? There was a time where you felt really confident in the community of friends and support that you had that were rooting and cheering for your marriage?
It's funny when you put it that way, like we were involved in a life group when we came back from kitimat. And we move to Surrey. Eventually, we were involved in a life group. And we were friends with all those people. And we, you know, had good friends. But I wouldn't say that there was people that except for one couple. Yeah. That would be part of it. Part of our relationship for sure. But other than that, nobody really knew anything other than you know, what you're putting out? during life group, right? Yeah. Our life group was very large. It wasn't an intimate kind of a life group. It was a large. Okay. Yeah.
All right. Family Life group. easy to get lost in kind of reminds me of our life therapy went to in red deer. Yeah, that was very large, too. And you just felt like you were the only one going through things. And so you just keep quiet.
The one in Oriole park? Yeah, the one that that we were the couple that foot foot.
Yeah, that's what we were labeled as.
Yeah, we were there one time. And this church life group. We just were being open, because that's the kind of people we are. And they label this. The couple that fights all the time. Really? Oh, yeah. So we were names
other than, Oh, we got a couple of fights all the time. Yeah. And
we went a second time. And that was the last time we ever went because they were not the friendliest of people. And that's, you know, I think it's all of these experiences that we have now that kind of drive us towards sharing with people the struggles that Christian marriages have, like, let's not be blind to the fact that Yeah, we have Christ and that's a huge part of who we are. And it gives us hope and a strength and, and a direction and a purpose to do these things. But it's not like a catch all. Save all your marriage is dying. Oh, I'm just gonna focus on Jesus. No, those are good things you should be doing to help you prevent, right. And America falling apart
the feelings of no support isn't just for Brian and I's generation. Right? It's obvious like, we're not the only ones who have felt like that. Yeah, like that. And there's probably people even older, that have felt like that at some
point. So in the 17 years, because you said you had a really large life group. In the 17 years, did you have a group that was like, or friends that counseled you both? Like a closer a closer circle that counts with you in your marriage? Or was it you had close friends? But it was one of those subjects? That's your marriage? This is my marriage. Yeah, I'm not gonna interfere with yours. Even if even if like you're being a bad wife, your friends not gonna come to you and be like, hey, you need to like smarten up here. What was that attitude? or Why did you say that? That was rude.
That was that was never a part of our life. I can't even I even for myself being in that young married person would not have said that to anyone. It was just not the way we operated. Yeah, we had super good friends that were very close to us. But, and I was very close to her. And we shared things right? But not as a couple. A couple,
huh? So it just there wasn't that the identification? Like hey, you're gonna help me through my marriage. I'm gonna help you through yours. And we're gonna work together to succeed at this. No, we didn't have that. Did you ever take any like, like marriage classes or marriage conferences or anything like that?
No, no, there was no there was marriage conferences. You didn't take them? Or no, there was no such thing.
There was none that I was aware of. And
we took none. Wow. Okay. So no pre marriage counseling is what then there's just as a recap quickly, no marriage counseling, no. community around you that was challenging you to be
Yeah, or even cheering you on cheering
you're on. So then it goes to the other question. Kind of following along lines of community. I know grandma is like a prayer person. She and grandpa was to they were like God fearing God loving praying for her kids praying for their kids all the time. So how did Were you able to go to grandma? And and, and just be like, Hey, this is what's going on. And she's like, I'll pray for you and that kind of stuff.
I don't believe that I ever really shared now we didn't live in the same town. Yeah, yo, you know, it was phone conversations. And, you know, once or twice a year they come visit, or we come down? Yeah. So I don't believe that I ever shared intimate things that were going on. You know, I would never, you know, because I again, that's kind of how I was raised. Yeah. What's at home? stays at home. Yeah, you don't share with it? Yeah. out with other people. Okay. So I don't believe I shared things, maybe little things with them. And they were but they were aware, because they could see just you know, when they would come to visit, they may see how it was
They could feel the vibes, right, yield attention, for sure. They are aware. And I probably said Little things, but I certainly wouldn't have phoned her up and said, My marriage is just like, terrible. What can I do? Yeah, I wouldn't have done that. Right.
So is that is that because of the way you were raised? That kind of stuff is just because I feel like it's a generational thing. Right? And a pride thing. If I can say it that way, like, yes, it's part of his generations. But the other part of it is that is that a pride issue on your part? Or was that just like that's what grandma grandpa did their marriage? I don't know if their marriage ever struggled. They were married for how many years? A long time. Yeah. A long time. 60 years?
Yeah, they had struggles, but they didn't really they weren't out there. So we knew about them. Right. But I know they they were different personalities. They didn't they didn't always agree on everything. But they were careful how they portrayed that. Yeah. Right. So we didn't see disagreements or arguments or fights, you know. And they didn't fight anyways. Yeah, I know my part. I think it's Yeah, it's just like, we just didn't share stuff like that.
So in 17 years, there was really no reaching out there was no people investing in. Just is that is that what you're saying?
I would say in the last last five years of our marriage, and even longer, but specifically in the last five years, I did have the one friend that was pouring into me. Yeah, right. Not into us. I mean, they were good friends of ours, but we didn't share our marriage with them. Yeah. Yeah. Because just because it didn't happen that way. Yeah. But she was she knew what was going on with me and I should Everything with her. Yeah. And she poured into me a lot. Yeah, I probably would have left a lot sooner. Had it not been for her. Okay, okay. Yeah. Cuz she kept sending me back. Right? You can do this, you can do this. You just pray, God will forgive you their wisdom, he'll give you a strength, you can just do it. You know, whatever wisdom she would give me I would you know,
so you're saying is that she never encouraged you to separate never. It was always encouraging you to success like, Hey, you can do this things can get better, right? Yes, that matters. So many important things in just that, like 10 minutes. Like there's so many things in 10 minutes. That was awesome. Like, very, very good nuggets, just what the things that we've been talking about.
Can I just ask what? So as she's pouring into you, what was your inner dialogue? Like at that point of, were you in your heart, when she's like, you know, encouraging you to stay where you already disconnected in your heart and being like, this is just a moot point. There's no point. Or how did you find that strength?
I would say that probably. Towards the end. Definitely. I was I was disconnecting. But most of the time I was not I was still trying desperately. I was never thinking divorce. I don't ever think we're going to end this.
We're Christians and they got divorced.
So we don't Yeah. So I was trying to make it work. I had been praying for a long time. I've been praying for him. I've been praying for the marriage. And you know, I've been doing what I could do. And it was getting tougher, for sure. And I think towards the end, there was a disconnect in the sense that nothing's working. Right. And I did leave one time. And I like I came to the end of myself.
I remember this. Um, where did you go?
I went to my friends. Okay. And you children were just burst.
We went amongst, which was fairly normal for us anyway. Which weekend is dispersed among the friends that we had there? I remember that. Yeah. I don't remember that incident, per se. Yeah.
Well, I was away for a weekend. And I didn't leave town or anything. I was yes there. But I spoke to him. And I said, this is it. Like we're at a crisis point. I can't do this anymore. And we had tried some counseling that hadn't flown. Okay. And so I just said, I'm at a point, I can't do this anymore. We're done. Like, I just can't. And of course, he said all the right things and whatever he said, and so I went back, but I said to him, I said, if we cannot work this out, and I leave again. It's done. Yeah. Because I'm not coming back and forth. Like a yo yo, yeah.
Yeah. So maybe this is too much to
what was the maybe the emotion or the I don't, I don't want to really go into the incident. But that kind of the straw that broke the camel's back. Because you said like, really what you've been doing for five years was lifting up the mat sweeping things under the mountain was getting bigger, and it was getting bigger and molehill was getting it was turning into a mountain. And nothing was working prayer. counseling didn't obviously work. Don't know friends around you didn't. any of that kind of stuff. So what was the what was that moment? Like when you're just like, this is I don't know what to do next. I think we're done.
No, I don't remember that moment very well. No, is it remember what brought me to that point of actually packing a bag and leaving the rice? Because for me to do that? I was a I was a very submissive wife. Yeah. I never pushed any arguments to the point where it would blow up. You know, I was Yeah, yeah. I was. Yeah, subservient. And not in a bad way. I don't want to make it sound like I was just a doormat, I wasn't, but I wasn't going to push it to the point of exploding where I couldn't bring it back.
can I just ask a question there. So you said it's not in a bad way that you're like, submissive or subservient? Did that eventually come around to the fact that like, if I push here, I know it's gonna just pop and it's gonna turn into an argument. Or is it just that's just how you were all the way through?
Yeah, I think that it was like if I pushed it too far, it wasn't that he exploded or any of that it was just that nothing changed. Yeah, right. bother. So you know, I've maybe done it once or twice. And it was like, it's not gonna nothing happens.
Yeah. So it was like even what we've talked about. Yeah. And the podcast is it's a behavioral momentary change because there's a reward for Change
where you get something out of it. So in this particular case, it was saying all the right things that, you know, one would expect, a wife would want to hear in order to keep the story going, right. But you just find yourself circling because you haven't got to the root of what actually was going on in the heart of the person.
Yeah. And you're not actually dealing with things. You're still even though you're like, yes, yes, this Yeah, I'll come back. You're actually just lifting up the rug, and you're sweeping more stuff underneath the rug. I get. That's, that's really, there's a lot of golden this, like,
Did you find after the fact after you made the choice? You know what, like, we've exhausted all things were you ever scorned because I feel like back in the day, it was such a taboo? subject, especially in the church?
Was there a divide or did you feel?
I'm like an outcast, I guess if that's the right word.
No, not at all. Well, that's awesome. Yeah. in that church, where he had been that last five years, I had good friends. Yeah. Good support. So no, I was never again, everybody knew us. Everybody knew both of us. Yep. Right. So they were not wholly surprised. And they were supportive. Yeah. And I actually I have not been, I've not found it a problem anywhere. Nobody has ever scarred me in any place I've been. That's, that's awesome.
So many times you hear when it comes to divorce and like old mentalities of religious thinking and how, you know, somehow it's just a huge issue. And I think over the years, the church really has done damage. Mm hmm. For women and men in that situation.
I was really blessed with a lot of support at that point.
Yeah, just not during the relationship.
In the last five years. There was there was more support. Yeah.
But do you think of the last five years at that point? It was it was just a sinking ship. Looking back now that you probably can,
I think the last five years because of where we were, began, that was the beginning of the end.
Okay. How do you mean, where we were like, location
wise? We Yeah, because we were in Williams lake. And we had been called to come alongside another pastor and his wife taking over church, we were called to come in to work alongside them. Yeah. And that was like the beginning of the end.
Okay. So even as as, like, what was the how long after like, when it finally was over? Was it that you were finally finished with, like having to be in the same house? and pay the same bills, do all that kind of stuff together? Did it take for you to finally just land on your feet, for instance, or to say, I don't know what that mean, but like to land, and you felt like, okay, I can move forward? Like, what was the what was the separation like for you? Now emotionally with all the kids? All four of us? We were here because I remember what it was like for us? I do. I was the oldest.
Well, I tell you, that was a whole brand new experience for me, cuz I didn't take care of the money. Right. I never made any money.
So that's right.
Yeah. It was a brand new experience. And, you know, again, there was a lot of support, especially at that point, I went into my doctor and told her what was going on and told her I needed some help. Getting out of town. Yeah. And she helped me get finances from welfare. And, you know, I had friends that were also helping. Yep. And it was seamless leaving town. The once we got to that point, yeah.
It there was a little bit of, you know, stuff before
Yeah, a little bit a little bit, getting the things out of the house, which ended up not being a problem. But you know, they these are the things you have to overcome now, right? Because I had just left I just left taking the kids. I'm left with some clothes, but obviously we needed more things to leave. So you know, that was a bit of a little dip there, if you want to call that. Yeah. But then once we left, you know, it was a matter of finding a place to settle. And welfare at that time, welfare was just a godsend. And they were very helpful. They they provide your finances, you actually get to rent your truck and move us out of town. And then it was on welfare for a good couple of years before I had to do the next thing. Yeah, financially. So for me, that was a great blessing. It gave me the time to settle to find a place to live to just, you know, raise my kids Yep. And move on and get healed. Yes. So I was pretty much in that mode for a couple of years before I had to go out and look for a job.
Yeah, I remember that.
what was the timeline from moment of like, we're leaving to this place where you were you say that you found healing? What was the timeline if you can remember? How many years because where you move to? I think for the first time, you really had a sense of community. Mm hmm. And people that care about you, be it that they're in a similar situation. And you just found like this band of women, right? To help shoulder the weight. Yeah, of single mom. Mm hmm.
So from the time that I left, until I came here to Kelowna, and came into this church was probably only about three or four months. And within a short time, I was enveloped into this single moms group, where we had, like you say, women all on the same boat, and teaching. Yeah, and prayer ministry. And there began the healing right there. For me, and then for all of the kids as well, and just being in church and being enveloped in the community and in the church. Yeah, there was healing there. Right. Yeah. So I mean, I would say it came pretty quickly. It didn't take us long to find our feet. Yeah, from the time that we left until we got settled here. But then I'd say it was a good a good couple of years before, you know good. got really settled. Yeah.
Interesting. I remember when, when we we landed here, we started going, we didn't really try any other churches. Did we know
why was that we came here because of this church.
Oh, see, I didn't know that until this moment. I was today years old. When I learned that particular fact. How did you hear about it beforehand?
Well, Pastor Dave had been in our church at Williams Lake one time.
So the one time was enough that we should go to this church.
Um, well, you got to remember I moved here with another family. Yeah. My supportive family. Yeah. And we had decided they would either be Cranbrook or Kelowna.
Thank goodness, it was colonial. Yeah.
Because of a pastor there. Or this pastor here. Hmm. I prefer this one because it was closer to my family. Yep. down the coast. Yeah, for sure. That's why we settled here.
So because pastor Dave preached in that church one time, we knew of a church that was here, and then we came here, it's almost like, God knows what's going to happen. Because now I'm an associate pastor at that same church 25 years later, I say, it's just it's a it's amazing what God does, because I remember, at the beginning, I think was pastor Diane was there. And she was part of our history as a as a family and part of the healing the things moving on. What what to you, being part of a church community or being part of a community was the most important part. Or maybe there's a couple, some really important parts about church community or just community in general, we say church community, because that's just a huge part of who we are like, it's, that's part of who we are. So church community, why is it so important that you wrap yourself around or put yourself in a position to have that kind of community?
while standing alone is very lonely. I can't even imagine it. When we were drawn into this church. I mean, we attended with another family, so I didn't walk into the church alone. Yeah. But it wasn't very long before we were enveloped to this. Yeah. Right. And then not long after that, we were enveloped into a life group that took kids, right family life group. So, you know, we were just enveloped in a life group and in a single mothers ministry and in the church and, and I remember specifically in church every Sunday, there would be a lady that would always come and give me a hug. And she always every time I saw her, it was like, oh,
every time Yeah, you would cry. Or she would i would Oh,
because she would always come and just say the right one thing. Yeah. Right. And it was it was a real blessing to me, you know, so I was being blessed that life group was being blessed in single moms ministry. And and ladies Bible study in the daytime. Like, I just had it like I was just being enveloped everywhere being fed and being prayed over and nurtured and, you know, and like, how can you not
heal, and then be being a part of, like, friendships that have lasted? Yes, some of those those friendships are still friends with now 22 years later, they're still you're really close friends that you meet with every single week and have dinner with all the time. And I've spent time with their kids. That's right. Yeah. Growing up. That's, that's amazing. It's necessary. It's necessary
like I can't.
We've been there. You've been there where you have felt complete alone. And in a situation where you even felt like you couldn't even share with anyone the struggles that you were having, because it just wasn't something that was done was done in that in that time.
We've been felt, you know,
some generations after the fact, in our early years that we couldn't there's no way that we could talk this embarrassing. Yeah, to talk like, we shouldn't be having problems, right? We just got married, like, what is there really to have problems about and it just can spiral downhill so quickly? What would you say to someone who might be listening that finds themself in a similar situation to what you have experienced? What would be something that you would encourage them? to do? Or not to do? from your experience?
I think the most important thing is to find a group, like whether it's a ladies group, whether it's a single moms group, whether it's a life group, that's you know, a mixed life group, yeah. Or a family, whatever you can, wherever you can fit in, just grab a hold of and share your life. Yeah, like, Don't keep it to yourself. Share. Yeah, whether you cry every time. Yep. As you know, I do. All the time. But But you'd come to a place where you don't cry anymore. Yeah, you know what happens?
Yeah, cuz you're healing. It might happen to me. Yeah.
It'll always happen to you. Yeah. It there's always crying.
But that's the most important thing is to go places where you can be loved on, or you can be ministered to where you can be prayed for and where you can in turn love on others. Right, and pray for others.
Exactly. I think it's important to note that, you know, going into it, I mean, I would think it's safe to say most people wouldn't go into marriage with like, well, this is my, this is my first go around. And the next time I'll get it right. I would hope not. We certainly didn't I know that you said earlier that you did not go into your marriage with a second option like there is no this is it. This is you know, till death do us part. That there if you're in the situation where it has ended, that there's still life after the fact. Right? And did you ever battle your own inner demons with feeling like a failure in that way, especially with raising boys and your daughters? Did you ever was there ever war there? Of how how can I speak into their life? What I know, I walked into my marriage, right thinking when it just seemingly fell apart?
Well, that's good.
Mm hmm. Was there ever a time where you felt? I'm just not cut out for this? Like, how can I speak to something that didn't even last? For me?
specifically that no. I felt as a failure sometimes. And even that's a strong word. I felt often that I didn't know how to raise boys. Right. Right. But I prayed often, I prayed always, like God would be the father. You know, just be the dad be the dad to these boys. Because I don't know how to dad. Yep. Right. And I and I would pray that other men would come along and father them or, you know, speak into their lives. But I never felt that because I was a failure at marriage. It couldn't speak to them about marriage. Not that I you know, yeah, I don't think everybody spoke into that much. But I didn't feel a failure at that. I felt I felt that I did everything I could to make the marriage work. Yep. And I, you know, so that, I would say go into it. Do it. Do what you can make the best of it. Yep. You know, give it your best. That's right. Trust God. Trust God. To work it out.
Right. And to trust God to work you out.
right. Like so many. I was like, Lord, you need to fix him. Yeah. Right. And all the while there was there was big gaps in my own heart that needed fixing.
So that being said that way, that's actually really good because
we're talking about this
forum for you, you had to take responsibility for your actions the way you responded, the way he reacted.
Is there ever a time where you just
rose up and just kind of just said something that damaged things further? Because you said very early on that you're kind of not subservient, but like submissive and just kind of you're not aggressive? Oh, yeah. peaceable, you're peaceable. You want you want peace and agreeable and agreeable. And sometimes because I know I'm much like dead. I'm not always agreeable. If more often And then I'm pleased to have the agreeable people.
But I have seen over the years, I have been in this family for almost 22 years. And I have seen mama bear rise up. Right? And I'm like, oh, you're gonna get smacked? Someone's gonna get
hurt real bad.
It's gonna be you and good on you, Mum. Yeah.
This is her thinking silence.
I don't know that I ever really
spoke to the wall. It's kind of Yep. How I would feel. I think I I would when I was at the end, it was at the end. And like, if you push them far enough down, yeah. This is this is how it's going to blow over rolls. Yeah. But it takes a lot to get me there. Yeah, yeah, I can get pushed along ways before I stand up. And I think then when I get to that point, so then we're done, right? Yeah.
Yeah. Right, I guess I can tell you, you have an immense amount of patience. I remember. I don't know we were living in this house that we're currently in. And we it seems like every day we were just fighting. Do you remember that? It was just like, every day, no matter what. It wasn't even. You were just trying to you're trying to hold me to like, Hey, you said you're gonna pay rent, or Hey, you're gonna do the dishes, or Hey, it's your laundry day, or Hey, like, you're just gonna, you need to do these things. And it just felt like we were fighting all the time. And I know, you had four kids. I'm the oldest, I remember much more about the things that happened like this. Early on this some of the even the younger of our my siblings doesn't even remember some of the stories that I have about some of the things that have happened. Do you do you feel like in all of those years, being away not having a husband? That trying to to? Do you feel like you've succeeded in parenting your children the way you want it to? With a dad not being present? Or her husband not being present?
Hmm, heavens, no, you can always look back and think, Oh, I should have done that different. Yeah, I shouldn't have responded that way. Oh, if I'd only done this, right. I you know, if this, there's always you know, these things, they scroll through your mind. And you could just like, Oh, I can't believe I did that. But at the same time, I have to believe that, you know, God knew who I am. And he knew who you guys were. Yeah. And I prayed always that he would fill in the holes. But yeah, my particular prayer, God just be the dad and fill in the holes. Yeah. Because I knew I had holes. Yeah. You know, I knew there there is that I wasn't. I wasn't doing it right. Or I wasn't, I just wasn't comfortable in. That was just God. Just take care of that.
Did you? In all of that. Did you feel like you just weren't enough?
so how did you manage that? God filled in the holes got filled in the holes?
Yep. Yeah. What else can you do? gotta trust that God will meet the needs that need to be met in however he can do it. Yeah,
cuz I can't do it all? Well, and you know, like,
I know for a fact, like, I've always just, you raised four kids for good kids. For the most part, I'm not gonna speak to my siblings. They're not here to defend themselves by saying things. So listen to this, guys. I could see a lot worse. But you've raised four children. And all of that. You've always been stable. You've always prayed. You've always been able to I never felt like we didn't have food on the table. Yeah, I never felt like I didn't have clothes. I didn't mind the value of those clothes or wherever we went. I felt like I can fight whatever I want. I we never had we never had a lack. If anything, like you can say like, we never had lack. And that was the Lord you prayed constantly. I know you did. But we never had a lack for anything. We always had what we need, even though there's almost virtually no money sometimes God always provided we always had food in the house. We learned to love mac and cheese and mac and cheese with a salsa to the salsa Cheez Whiz. Yeah, see, no one remembers that except for me and the family. siblings looked at me like what are you talking about? Like it was the best. Anyway. There's a night and pretzels. Sweet. Lots of pretzels. Because you can find back in there and you could buy him in a bag like two tons for three bucks.
Oh, Lord. That's true. Can we just talk about changing, changing back here away from pretzels and food? Um, favorite things so often in the church realm. You know, there's always like a dark stigma against divorce and how blessing like everything just seems to stop if that's the end result. For your marriage. Um, and I, I just want to say like you're living proof that I mean, the blessings that have come on this side of things. I mean, you went back to school. Mm hmm. I just, I'm an art. I mean, I came into the family when I was 19. So you were already well, working at that point in the career that you chose, there was financial huge financial blessings, because you were getting paid really well, in a career that you're still working in today. Did that help to shift the mindset coming out of sort of a divorce? The big letter D that no one wants to talk about? Did you ever feel like well, now? What's left? or will there be anything beyond this? Like, am I have I disqualified myself? Because now we're divorced? Did that ever cross your mind?
No, I don't think so.
I don't think so. I think we have really good teaching in our single moms group. And I don't think that ever crossed my mind. That's incredible. I think that I was already feeling like I was more of a person. That doesn't even sound good. But I think I was I was more ready. Yep. By myself. Right, then I had been in the middle. Right? So I don't think I never felt that I was thinking,
was that like a revelation to you? Like, how long? How long after you separated or divorced? Did you finally like, Hey, wait a minute. I feel like I'm more than I could be me
was that after all the healing?
Because it was extensive? It would have probably been, yeah, several years down the road, certainly not near the beginning. But even at the beginning, I was I was just so I was so receiving of God's presence and God's healing. And just all that was coming to me through the church that I never thought of lack. I didn't think of being failure, didn't think of lacking anything. And I certainly didn't think I needed to get back into that kind of situation. Right? Yep. Right. So our single mums leader at that point, one of the things she said was, for every year that you were married, you should have at least two or three not exactly sure what it was, but two or three years, or every year that you were married to have healing, or you know how many years that would have that's a long time. That's a long time, like, five or six years.
Feel healing? Yeah.
But and you know, for most people, they don't give it that time. No, that's, you know, not everybody needs that long. Yep. But when you have children, and there's all the things, there's things to work out. And you certainly don't need to jump back into another relationship quickly, because you're just adding stuff on top of stuff. Yep. And so that always stuck in my mind. And not because I was I, I needed a guide, but it was just part of me. I needed the time to heal. And I was going to take the time to heal. And I wasn't going to put my kids through anything more because they already were going through stuff. Yeah, yeah. And so No, I just I think I just I began to balloon. Really?
Yeah, I would agree.
Yeah, I would agree.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love the fact that one of what sort of thinking back to even when Brian and I were dating, and even then, and I didn't know your whole story. At that point. Everything was always back to what does God say? So nice to irritate me so bad. Because I don't come from a divorced family. And so I mean, there was some dysfunction. Don't Don't get me wrong, that there. It wasn't perfect. But it was foreign to me. And then even my own thoughts, again, back to that whole thing of like, Oh, we can't get divorced, because then we're outcasts. And I mean, we were married, we were outcasts. So really like that? Right? I mean, that we didn't need to be divorced to be an outcast as far as dysfunction went, right. But I really appreciate how you had such a solid identity, and you still do have such a solid identity and who you were, this was just a speed bump. This wasn't gonna throw you off course. And I really saw that dance and that strength constantly because I mean, Brian sister was 12 when I came into the family, and so you were like, right in the thick of it with her, as far as you know, child rearing and things and it was always You were always that silent strength, you know? meddled. And I, I appreciated that part of never really getting in our business, although I would have appreciated, you get into it a little bit of business, right? But you just took everything to God in prayer, you never sort of overstepped yourself, in my opinion, right? And you still don't. Right? And it's just, you know, like, Whatever God needs to work out in your children and in their spouses, you are 100% sure that God is going to speak and he's going to work out. And I think you said it when you said, you have to be subservient. And you have to be willing to allow God to work on right on areas in your own heart and healing.
Just as a recap,
for everything one, pre marriage counseling, get pre marriage counseling, or counseling in general counseling in general, find a community. Don't Don't let it go by where you're just doing to do marriage on your own. Find people around you that love and you and care for you are going to push you to succeed in your marriage, things that we've been talking about, learn how to communicate with your spouse,
listen to your spouse, what like one of the things that you said that was just really, you know, when you're telling your spouse something and confidentiality or just you're pouring out your heart as a vulnerable place to be in? Don't go wash that and just start flapping gums. Right. Right. Like there's a trust that's broken. Right at that point that we're like, if we're on a small scale here, like what else are you saying behind the scenes? Right? Don't Don't put your spouse through that.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Mom, we just wanted to say thank you for being our very first amplified marriage guest on our podcast, Chris was awesome. It was very good.
Thanks for having me. love being here.
And we'll have you back again, very much. So until you can start telling some of the other sides of stuff and stories that maybe I don't want to get out. But if you like our podcast, please and you have seen it, you know what it is you've spent some time with it, share it, let your friends know all about what we do. We're here to help you to offer communication, some foundations, anything that we can do to help your marriage succeed, keeping it real, keeping it real. There's a topic or a question or anything that you'd like us to discuss, please email us at amplified email@example.com and as you have heard us say before, we believe that marriage can be reset, crashed, recharged. Thanks for listening.